The Swift Sword

Fair enough

Though, I do think it's a little early to just dismiss her because she doesn't have a history. She was good enough for Tengoku, so obviously she is doing something right. What else does she have to do for people to give her a chance?

There is also the fact that, unless you do give her a chance to actually create a dynasty, you shouldn't really use that argument against her because she is the first in her line. It'd be like arguing against the first Hantei or Toturi just because they didn't have anyone on the throne before them.

Seems a bit silly to me.


It's actually Chugi, but that's not so important. I am aware that this particular virtue of Bushido means more than simply doing what you are told. It means being aware of what the consequences are for your actions.

The consequences of having the ruler of Rokugan be a spot as unstable as a revolving door—where everyone and anyone can challenge its legitimacy just by having a magical sword or some old, famous name—is destructive not only to the positions of the Emperor/Empress, but to the general populace who depend on such a ruler to offer them governance and stability to their lives. Rokugan is not a democracy, after all. It's leadership should not change hands on the drop of a hat.

_________________

I respect your position on that, and I largely agree. My view is not, "she doesn't have a history, ax her." If I have a slogan, it's "Judge the Iweko dynasty by its record."

Regarding Tengoku - it also thought the Toturi dynasty was a good bet. The Lion Clan's record on choosing Imperial lines is much, much better - Hantei was "our guy" for the job. (As you'll recall, the decision was in Akodo's hands.) I don't see anything wrong with reasserting that right to make or break Emperors.



I'll pedantic you back and insist that it's Chugo in Akodo's bushido.

More seriously, yes, I take your point. It's been decades since succession 'worked' in Rokugan, and this is a problem.

Iweko may have had Tengoku's blessing for a certain finite period, but it appears that blessing has been withdrawn. Perhaps her deal with Daigotsu has caused the heavens displeasure - "as above, so below". Or perhaps it's just that being the champion of Ningen-do against Jigoku does not qualify one to rule Rokugan. The Thousand Years of Peace wasn't presided over by the "Shosuro Dynasty" after all.

Vote Hantei: a track record of stability.

_________________
A samurai's greatest strength is not what he is,
but what he can be. - Akodo

Weeelllll, not to quibble, but the decision was not really in Akodo's hands. If you recall, he came to the realization that Hantei could have defeated him at any time, but sought to do it without spilling his brothers blood. Akodo could not have won the duel.

RELEVANT STORY TEXT: "In the final battle, Akodo faced Hantei, and almost killed his brother before the sunlight reflecting from Hantei's sword shone in Akodo's eyes. Akodo was shocked by what he had nearly done, and realized then that Hantei could have defeated him at any time, but was not willing to shed his brother's blood. Akodo then kneeled to Hantei, who became the first Emperor of Rokugan"

More importantly, the Lion will once again have an emperor on the throne soon. Both of her children are half Akodo, after all.
We don't, and never have, had the right or desire to make or break emperors. Even Toturi was EXTREMELY reluctant to take the throne.



What makes you think Iweko has lost the approval of the Celestial Heavens? I would think they would be happy with her, bringing an end to Daigotsu, Fu Leng, Kali Ma, and some sense of order to Jigoku. And apparently brought 25 years of peace to the Empire. I would think they would be happy with her. Did I miss something in the story that shows the Heavens are mad at her?

_________________
North American Taisa of the White Lion

"I may die for my choice, but I shall die pure."

If memory servers correct, this is the second "in canon" telling of the story of the Kamis' tournament, and it has been slightly altered since the first version that appeared in Winter Court: Kyuden Seppun supplement of the 1st ed. RPG.(or was it Kyuden Asako? blergh). Basically in the first telling the duel between the two brothers lasts for a full day, and Akodo becomes more wrathful as time passes. He becomes more and more aggressive until Hantei barely manages to deflect his blows, then when Akodo readies his killing strike, the sun dawns, sending its light to reflect off Hantei's blade to his eyes. In that moment Akodo realizes his mother Amaterasu favors his brother (he was always her favorite child) and he pulls the killing blow. Feeling the dishonor for his intention to spill family blood (and under the scrutiny of Amaterasu), he concedes the win.

Of course every story sounds different from a different mouth, and every clan i.e. probably has its version, I'd assume the version in DoTE is the more popular one. But imho the original version sounds more believable (kami sound more human and "faulty") and it better portrays the recurring setting theme of the Lion "interfering" with the choice of Emperors.

Huh, never seen that version. I'll try to track it down, thanks for the info!

_________________
North American Taisa of the White Lion

"I may die for my choice, but I shall die pure."

The DotE version is supposed to be Kaimetsu-Uo's tale of the test of the Kami. Kyuden Seppun gives us Hantei's perspective. Working out which of those two had more insight into Akodo's psychology is an exercise for the reader.

_________________
A samurai's greatest strength is not what he is,
but what he can be. - Akodo

Kaimetsu-Uo who was not born even once born during the Test of the Kami?

_________________
“We fight to preserve the culture of the Empire itself. Surviving without our culture, our laws, our tradition – that is no survival at all. An Empire that defeats its foes but has a creature like Jimen as its heart is no longer Rokugan.”

- Gobbo tainted Madness -

True, which means he was actually telling the tale probably from Hida's perspective.

_________________
North American Taisa of the White Lion

"I may die for my choice, but I shall die pure."

Hida who was talking with Shinsei?

_________________
“We fight to preserve the culture of the Empire itself. Surviving without our culture, our laws, our tradition – that is no survival at all. An Empire that defeats its foes but has a creature like Jimen as its heart is no longer Rokugan.”

- Gobbo tainted Madness -

If you go by the write-up from the 1st Edition Core Rulebook, it gets a little more muddy:



That was from 1997, written by (I assume) John Wick. We can see at this point a basic narrative foundation for the myth to evolve from. All of the important parts are covered, and there is plenty of room for expansion. And evolve it did; it is revised in the Winter Court series and clan books, again in 2nd Edition, and again in the Dawn of the Empire, etc. "A mistake" became being blinded by Hantei's sword, which became divine intervention, which became the near-defeat of Hantei, and so forth. As the setting became more and more settled, the more and more this significant event fleshed out in story. Not what some call a "retcon," mind you... simply a gradual evolution of the story in retellings, just like any other present-day myth. Going back simply brings you to a previous telling; it doesn't clear up the picture any more or less.

So ultimately what truly happened in that moment depends upon who you ask. It's not like we can undertake a real-life Rokugani Anthropology project or anything. (Although sometimes I wish we could!)

_________________
Bosozoku * Gomi no Sensei * Story Team

That was a key point in the early RPG supplements. How many slightly different variants are there of the Matsu/Kakita duel?

_________________
Legacy format discussion

Four, I think?

The one in Way of the Lion is naturally the correct one.

_________________
Swift Sword Forum Rules

Yeah, four by my count. So far, anyway.

That kind of obscurity and storytelling evolution was a big part of the early edition's appeal.

_________________
Bosozoku * Gomi no Sensei * Story Team

Greetings,

Could the Lion clan make a treaty to use the Crane's port? It seems it would be better to do that then attack them. Then again the Crane clan are playing everyone against each other so I have no love of them. I'm just saying we may have bigger battles to fight.