The Swift Sword

Wow, very nicely put, Domotai. Agreed. And probably an apt description of my reactionary tendencies as well.

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North American Taisa of the White Lion

"I may die for my choice, but I shall die pure."

I will just suggest that you wait for the full set to be previewed, and maybe the next edition to be previewed also. This Den holding is going to be legal at April 2012 (!!) so I guess that some new steps in the EE deckbuilding will have been taken.

I don't know, maybe Lions would be able to blitz through Dishonors in 2 turns, so Den would be mostly bowed or useless.

Whinning won't change prints and definitely it's not changing the fact that the design team has something bad for the Lion's future in mind. The Den is strong, but against certain decks and clans. Lions seem to hurt a bit from the hodling, but...I've seen worse. Breach of Etiquette and Fallen Lion fortress were far worse, and Lions were not complaining that much back in the days.

I would suggest that you take it easy for a while.

*Crawls back to my 9 PS castle*

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"Crab Clan Mojomaker * Tactical Loyalist* exp.6"

* JUST Say no to Hotako *

Well, Breach WAS considered OP at the time, and is banned in Legacy because of it. And Fallen Fortress almost never saw play. Compared to breach, I would say this card is probably a little lower power, but not by much due to its reusability. But it also has the added benefit of being usable regardless of comparative honors, which limited breaches effectiveness after the first one was dropped. Which is in turn offset by Den's targeting requirement.
Expressing dislike of a previewed card isnt whining however, its constructive criticism.

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North American Taisa of the White Lion

"I may die for my choice, but I shall die pure."

When your thread created to express that dislike is titled "Well, looks like at least one deck type just DIED for us", and your OP contains "Seriously WTF? A reusable, non unique, undestroyable, 2 gold 3-4 fing honor loss holding? What the hell? Dovetails nice with another one that just says "oh, your dishonored!" So, they can cause up to 12 honor loss in one turn for a cost of six gold? 15 if our champ is in play? Seriously, WHAT THE HELL???" it sounds like whining. There is nothing constructive in your posted criticism. Hope this helps.

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Straw Dog * The Dude Abides

No, whining would be DT hates the Lion, this was printed to kill us, no fair!!!!!
That was more of a rant.

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North American Taisa of the White Lion

"I may die for my choice, but I shall die pure."

Look jaku I have never met you but I can only hope that in reality you are less negative and vitriolic than you are on the internet. I think that in the future there are a few things to consider before you make threads like this.

1. We have a saying in the South: if you spend all day starin' at the fertilizer pile you'll think the whole world is made of crap. I actually just made that up but it still applies. Before EE is even released paragon is possibly THE most useful keyword to have in the game aside from "samurai" or "shugenja." Let's say that you're right, and dishonor is a near auto-loss for paragon. Breeder had an auto-loss to dishonor as well, just as Embassy had one to breeder and mantis swarm. And yet, these two decks continued to dominate the season.

2. Reassurance from players who have seen the whole set, who did you a favor by reassuring you, should have been the end of the thread. I don't know what Gilador is referring to when he says that Lion will be fine but I do know that I believe him and will be patient.

3. This is a game which features magical samurai magically challenging each other to magical duels. It's just not ever worth getting angry about, not even internet angry.

If you want the lion clan boards to thrive, then stop spreading this hyperbolic scatology across it. You are only serving to scare away new players who have not played the game long enough to ascertain how ridiculous this entire discussion is.

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Actually, I'm generally a very easy going guy. It takes quite a bit to get me mad, this holding just pushed my buttons a bit. Probably largely because it was previewed with Rugashi Bazaar as its "Yang". though the cards are in no way balanced in my opinion.

1. I never said it was a near auto loss for Paragon. I said it would be hard for Paragon, but more concerning for Tactican or Scout. Harder for Unicorn Paragon.

2. Reassurance, if you look, WAS the end of the thread for me.... until it was followed by several personal attacks AFTER I stepped away.

3. Lol. True, very true. Guess I need to work on that one.

Somehow I doubt this thread will scare anybody away, but I suppose it IS possible. All valid points. I still believe there are going to be problems with dishonor, but like you said, perhaps there are things that remain to be seen that will help. Again, unless forced to defend myself, I am willing to wait until after the double previews to continue the discussion. Peace.

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North American Taisa of the White Lion

"I may die for my choice, but I shall die pure."

I think that comments like this highlight your inability to accurately assess cards (both previews and past cards).

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An atheist terrorist group has recently begun to employ suicide bombers to go around blowing themselves up for no reason.

Based on? Seems like a pretty good comparison of each respective card and its pros/cons. If you have a dissenting point, please provide something better than "your wrong", or thinly veiled personal attacks.

Breach was hampered by your opponents honor. Once theirs slipped below yours, it was a dead card. Den is not limited by that. It can drive them all the way to the goal. Breach was a one time 5 hit. Den over two turns can potentially exceed that to 6. Each has its own benefits, Breach comes out ahead in the power department for sure, but not by all that much. If you disagree, fine. But please provide why. If I am so "highly inaccurate", it should be easy to prove.

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North American Taisa of the White Lion

"I may die for my choice, but I shall die pure."

Breech is a fate card so its use can not be anticipated. Breech did not cost gold. Den as a holding has the opportunity costs associated with buying and using a holding for more than gold production. Breech was always a 5 honor hit as long as your family honor was highest. Den is only a 3 honor hit if you have a 3+ base honor personality in play dishonored, against most of the field it will be a 1 or 2 honor hit at best.

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Legacy format discussion

Agreed, those are the reasons Breach is higher power. But the gold cost of Den is really negligible, as Breach existed at a time that Border Keep and Bamboo Harvesters didn't, so a 2 gold cost now has a significantly lower impact. Breach by itself usually could not achieve your victory condition, where Den can. Most dishonor decks of the period ran a significant amount of self honor loss, just to make Breach more effective.
Den also has a targeting requirement that Breach did not. Another reason breach is higher on the power scale.
Den will most often hit for 2. 2 every turn, every copy. Its threat also WILL add to your opponents incentive to seppukku, something Breach didn't. Which boosts your survivability and improves board position. Den also has a secondary use, providing gold. Personally, I think the fact that it is a dynasty card also frees up valuable space in your fate hand, but that is entirely my opinion. Both have several pros and cons, Breach is the stronger, Den the more dependable.

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North American Taisa of the White Lion

"I may die for my choice, but I shall die pure."

You don't understad breach if you don't think it could win games. Before the Blood Money rule a breech could drop you below your honor requirements and your game was effectively over.

Den will not, on average, hit for 2 every turn. First off it is a gold holding that costs gold to buy so early game the dishonor play will have to balance spending gold versus using the holding to cause an honor loss. If you play smart they will have to spend their gold on bodies in order to defend their provinces and they won't have use the Den. Also Den requires a dishonored target to work at all. Rehonoring and seppuku denies it targets.

Breech was a borderline too powerful card and Den is a fairly average effect.

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Legacy format discussion

Breach COULD win games, look at my post. But your supposition for Den goes for Breach as well, against a large part of the field, it didn't work. Either due to the majority of clans having slash honor requirements, or being Shadowlands, or having lower starting honor than the clan RUNNING breach. I understand exactly how it worked. And its limitations.

See the above already covered in detail the effects of Dens gold cost. Negligible at best.

Breach (it is spelled with an A, by the way) isn't borderline too powerful, it IS too powerful. Thus its banning. The question is whether or not Den is too powerful. And that discussion is on hold until next week.

Den will hit lower PH cards less hard, sure. But they also have little honor generation, start with lower honor, and have military as their main focus.

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North American Taisa of the White Lion

"I may die for my choice, but I shall die pure."

I'm reasonably sure that the only reason Breach is banned in legacy is because Unfortunate Incident is like it's 'soul of' and being able to run essentially six copies of it is silly.

(15 minutes pass)

I actually just went back and read through the legacy council's old posts, Breach was banned because the initial legacy stuff was done prior to Samurai Edition and the introduction of the 'Blood Money' effect as a default thing in the rulebook. When that was announced, there was talk of unbanning breach for a short time, then it's pretty much never mentioned again, presumably due to release or preview of Unfortunate Incident.

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Straw Dog * The Dude Abides

Yep. Hard to believe it was so long ago. Unfortunate is definitely its weaker half brother.

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North American Taisa of the White Lion

"I may die for my choice, but I shall die pure."