The Swift Sword

That would be my guess considering you seem to repeatedly refuse to include meta in your decks.

You haven't seen all the EE cards nor the cards in the first expansion (that will likely be out before April) but you're ready to claim that the arc (and probably the game) has been ruined forever.

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An atheist terrorist group has recently begun to employ suicide bombers to go around blowing themselves up for no reason.

also keep in mind that this card is basically a dead 2 for 2 against half the field (spider, mantis, crab, scorpion, forgotten temple) and some of those clans look to have some scary fat people that will be threatening provinces early and often.

yeah, this card is strong against lion, but i'm sure scorpion players are happy to finally have a chance against lion. i lost one game to a dishonor deck during the entirety of CE (running no meta). two and a half years of having damn close to an autowin and if i remember correctly, my halls midgame had pretty close to an auto win against it too, which would make it 4-5 years of horrible matchups against lion. it'll be a nice change of pace for scorpion players to have a real shot at beating lion (even if we don't like it ).

even if this card absolutely destroys lion like you say, relax. it'll see play out of a few decks and it may lose us some games, but we've had bad matchups before, we'll have bad matchups again. l5r has a very rock-paper-scissors metagame and if dishonor turns out to be the paper to our rock, i'm sure some other poor fool will be the scissors.

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RUN KEPPO IN YOUR SCOUT DECK!

LOL. I refuse to run a 4 gold holding that wrecks our gold scheme, and a 2 for 2 that I must leave unbowed for the dubious ability of gaining a 1 force token. Yep, thats repeated refusal right there. I must have missed the part where I said the game was wrecked forever. Maybe you could point it out? LOL.

Running a card that requires attacking, with opposition, in a defensive deck is not good deck building. In testing, I've found Shinden Shorai to be only marginally effective, as the personality must pop on it to be effective. I don't consider either of them to be effective meta.

Its not a refussal to RUN meta, its a refusal to run sub-par meta.

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North American Taisa of the White Lion

"I may die for my choice, but I shall die pure."

Valid points. Hmmm. Let me redefine the argument a bit. My problem isn't with this card alone, its the enormous power boost that dishonor seems to be getting. look at the scorpion magistrates, look at the removal of reactionary seppuku, look at the insulation of their holdings from meta, look at this card,and look at DT's response. Force boosts alone will not offset the power curve. And that seems to be their answer so far. Sure, you loosing lots of honor... but heres some free force!

Its not strictly Lion. Mantis shugs, Phoenix, Unicorn, Crab kaiu, Dragon..... it seems like most of the newer deck types will have a hard time with this. Not to mention the gold curve wreckage due to honor requirements.

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North American Taisa of the White Lion

"I may die for my choice, but I shall die pure."

If you insist on playing badly then of course you will lose. Against dishonor, just like against honor, you are better off buying gold for an extra turn and setting up to buy 3 or 4 peeps every turn.


You said it.


Akai is of little concern against a dishonor deck. You should be buying bodies and attacking not trying to set up a long defensive honor game.

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Legacy format discussion

Paragons, scouts and tacticians can all make good use of Shinden Shorai. The Seppuku change was made to help balance with dishonour v high and low honour clans. Dishonour have lost a turn v most decks (and I believe the new rule will cost them more than a turn as decks hold off their final attacks to build).

As for the kitsu I agree with you that the meta SO FAR is sub-par for them however given that we have seen 0 lion personalities for the EE base set don't you think you are jumping the gun. Why can't you wait a week till we see our two preview sets (never mind the full countdown, facebook previews and the first set after EE base) before deciding you know better than the design team who have all that information. How many games vs. dishonour or with it have you played in EE. Try some of them too to get a good opinion of how this game is going. That is what I will do then I will change my deck to suit like most players.

As for dishonour giving us some decks a hard time, so will many other decks including ours.

Sigh. Please try to understand my arguments. Not all decks can buy two turns of gold, then buy three to four people a turn. With our increased gold costs, only the Scout deck appaears to be capable of doing that on a regular basis.
Tac, Paragon, and to some extent, Shugenja will not be able to do that. So that argument is pointless. If you wait and buy a third turn of gold, maybe. But is allowing your opponent three turns to prepare for your first attack on the fourth turn a viable strategy? He will most llikely outnumber you by then.

Your right, I did say that if including bad meta cards in a deck that can't use them makes me a bad player, I guess I am. Shinden Shorai is not a good, dependable, anti dishonor card. Nor is Your Clan Needs You. In some situations, sure. Most of the time, not. Your Clan requires opposition, and Shinden requires the peep to fall on it.

I notice you ignored most of my argument, and focused on Akai. Akai is a body generator, and Ancestors will be NECESSARY to even attempt an attack, as half of our fate decks, on the defense or the attack, will require one to do anything other than have blank dumb force on the board. And again, do you really see turning every dishonor into a kill action as a viable strategy?

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North American Taisa of the White Lion

"I may die for my choice, but I shall die pure."

Good use, sure. Reliable use? No. 1/3 of the time, the card revealed in it will not be a personality. And it delays getting a card one turn from the province it reveals in. Its an OK card, I just dont see it as reliable anti-dishonor meta.

Fair enough, they may print a "golden bullet" kind of card that will balance all of this out. But as stated before, looking at the available cards, their revealed "meta", and the rules changes.... it looks like massive overkill to me. Do I think I know more than design? Probably not. Does that mean I agree with the direction design is taking? Absolutely not.

Now, the loss of the turn could or could not prove to be a big deal. My gut instinct is it won't be. Why? Because the dishonor that pushes you over will most likely come in the form of a battle action taken during one of your forced attacks during your turn.

But, I am willing to suspend discussion until our previews, like you suggest. Continue this in a week!

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North American Taisa of the White Lion

"I may die for my choice, but I shall die pure."

If your deck is so badly built that buying gold on turn 2 isn't a viable option then sure you will lose. I don't know what fantasy Shugenja deck you've built but the deck, to be viable for us, will have peeps that cost, on average, 6 and 7 gold and will work just lke the other decks in how effective waiting a turn to start buying peeps is.


Shinden Shorai isn't bad meta. It isn't meta at all. It is a card every single deck should include until a better deck accelerator becomes available. The reason it helps against dishonor is that it brings a personality into play during the action phase which gives you an opportunity to attack before that personality can be dishonored.


Seppuku can be a viable strategy. If the opponent has a limited ability to dishonor your peeps or to cause you honor losses without targeting your dishonored peeps then seppuku is a way to clog their hand with useless cards and to simply honor out. You're freaking out about them having slanderer and multiple dens in play which requires the expediture of far more gold than our average personality costs So killing a guy that cost use 5 gold at the cost of a 5 gold producing holding is pretty much a wash. Dishonoring an ancestor with Slanderer is almost a gift to us.

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Legacy format discussion

Best wait to see what is release. We only see one set of the cards and not the counters. Please wait to further this discussion.

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We serve a Empress above all others.

For the most part, agreed.

I have this track record of overreacting to cards that are blatantly and savagely above the curve long before examining how that individual card fits into a system. Vacuum sealed packages can spoil rapidly upon exposure to the atmosphere.

In short, I really don't like Den as it's previewed, but bluntly that's because I haven't seen solidly effective dishonor meta in a very, very long time...

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Swift Sword Forum Rules

*looks at the EE pdf*

I have. And you won't be seppuku'ing Akai, that's for sure

Alex

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L5R Rules Team

All this discussion also ignores the possibility of seeing either Convenient Disaster or Corrupt Officials in EE.

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An atheist terrorist group has recently begun to employ suicide bombers to go around blowing themselves up for no reason.

Don't worry guys, he's obviously a world class player otherwise he wouldn't be ignoring the advice and opinions of the... you know... not awful players in here

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I had every intention to wait until Friday to continue the discussion, but as personal attacks seem to still be flying....

I'm not a bad player. I win more of our local tournaments (Michigan) than I lose. I rarely travel to koteis as I cant justify spending that much on a hobby. Wife and kids and all that are higher priority.

So save your personal attacks on my playing ability, please. If you want to come up to Flint, I'll happily throw down and we can find out who is the better player.

Now, more on topic....

Having a dissenting opinion is NOT ignoring advice, and I havent ignored anyones opinion, I have responded with my different viewpoint (not all of the responders have disagreed with it, by the way.) I stand by my OPINION that this card appears overpowered, and that the "meta" suggestions put forward in the thread are either not true dishonor meta options, or underpowered/overcosted/dont fit/ etc.

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North American Taisa of the White Lion

"I may die for my choice, but I shall die pure."